Pat, The peoples vote!

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Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2018, 09:29

PAT.

He nails my views EXACTLY.


youtu.be/Nh11RYjheUY
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby greybeard » 04 Nov 2018, 10:01

For me he always does. This clip needs spreading as widely as possible - inside the UK to remind waverers what they voted for - and outside the UK to remind the world what shysters now run our country.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2018, 13:14

I am trying.

THIS was what we were clearly told. Over and over. Even though the establishment try and pretend that the leaflet every house recieved, and the government themselves CLEARLY told us didnt happen! It was very clear what I voted for. Now they are saying its wasnt.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/90046 ... dum-latest

Listen very carefully.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby greybeard » 04 Nov 2018, 14:10

Couldn't be more clear. But that won't stop the harridan May from betraying the 17.4 million and cementing us to the Customs Union and probably freedom of movement. The small sprinkling of pro Brexit MPs dont have the numbers ( or the backbone it seems ) to stop her.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2018, 15:39

There are no pro brexit MP's.
Only brexit. And traitors.

Likewise there is no extreme brexiteers. As the traitors call those that wish to do as the people voted.

And theres no hard or soft brexit. Just brexit, which means OUT COMPLETELY.

Thers no wonder the EU are baffled. We voted to leave. And insist we are leaving. But so far spent 2.5 years trying to stay in while saying we are leaving. Out means out. As in, the same as before we were in! Not connected in any way.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Scooterman » 04 Nov 2018, 16:57

George Soros has bankrolled the Peoples Vote to the tune of £5 million. But the establishment, bbc, and media are gunning for Arron Banks a British citizen and british tax payer. (and imho a decent bloke).

Remain should have won, they got up to enough dirty tricks. As well as extending the eu ref registration deadline by 2 weeks (hoping to wake up the young). Councils sent out ballot papers to eu nationals who weren't entitled to vote.

There were also little gems like this...https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/sta ... 6504430592
574c9800130000fb073830be.jpeg
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 05 Nov 2018, 19:05

It is not clear though is it? Leave the EU was the decision no mention of Council of Europe or on rule of law, human rights and democracy. No mention of European Convention on Human Rights and European Social Charter, the source of law of Charter of Fundamental Rights are created by Council of Europe not the EU. So we should retain those rules as Clause 8 protects many disabled people but what was the first thing the Tories did, remove them even though it was not part of the EU.

Probably a bit too complicated for the majority to understand. Without that convention they can do what they like and we have no power to change it, OK if you never need it but when it is all that prevents a CCG from putting you in a care home if cheaper than you living at home it is kind of important.

And if I had voted for Brexit I'd be shouting for another vote to clarify what we expect from the government including the possible break up of the union given the rights of NI citizens under the Good Friday agreement which was never mentioned as they were so short sighted to consider it, you can include the ECHR explaining what it gave and do we really want rid of it? .

Bringing back control to one woman elected by her party who then gets her cronies to form a cabinet and negotiate only on her policies is not democracy. It doesn't matter which way you voted you are being screwed.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 05 Nov 2018, 19:29

Yes it was ABSOLUTELY clear. Out meant the opposite to being in. As in before we were conned into joining.

We joined a trading block. It was called the common market back then. Now called the single market All the rest, the centralised control, etc was piled in on top to create some socialist non democratic ussr style block that tells us what to do that we never asked for, complete with open borders etc by stealth in the background. And thats not what we signed up for. Or ever wanted.

Hence the vote to leave which the stupid elites and lefties, and liberals have been trying to change or ignore and stay in the EU by every means possible for the last 2.5 years. Leave means the same as before we joined. Out in every way. And the OUT or LEAVE vote won in a once in a generation vote.

Probably a bit too complicated for the majority to understand. Without that convention they can do what they like and we have no power to change it, OK if you never need it but when it is all that prevents a CCG from putting you in a care home if cheaper than you living at home it is kind of important.


Since britain did much to support and create this, its highly unlikely they would reverse it, and if they did they would be voted out. And it works both ways. The EU can reverse it, and we cant stop them... Its a dictatorship. So this is all bollox.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 05 Nov 2018, 20:01

Burgerman wrote:Yes it was ABSOLUTELY clear. Out meant the opposite to being in. As in before we were conned into joining.

We joined a trading block. It was called the common market back then. Now called the single market All the rest, the centralised control, etc was piled in on top to create some socialist non democratic ussr style block that tells us what to do that we never asked for, complete with open borders etc by stealth in the background. And thats not what we signed up for. Or ever wanted.

Hence the vote to leave which the stupid elites and lefties, and liberals have been trying to change or ignore and stay in the EU by every means possible for the last 2.5 years. Leave means the same as before we joined. Out in every way. And the OUT or LEAVE vote won in a once in a generation vote.


I'd suggest that you look at what we joined, it was called the EEC but quite clear at the time what it involved. https://fullfact.org/europe/ask-full-fa ... n-and-now/ A common misconception but there was a lot more to it. The real problem is that successive governments agreed treaties fundamentally changing our position without another referendum.Too scared as they knew that we could vote leave.

Probably need to look at our membership of the Council of Europe which we were in before the 75 vote, so if you want to go back to pre 75 we'd keep membership of the Council of Europe. Not quite clear is it? The ECHR should not be removed it was from the Council of Europe which we were one of the first members of post WW2

Facts and clarity didn't really come into the debate from either side, far too easy to put incorrect numbers on the side of a bus :(
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 05 Nov 2018, 20:07

Too scared as they knew that we could vote leave.

Quite. And now we have thank god. To get our country back from the EUSSR.

As for stuff we were in before we joined the common market, that may remain. Since thats not the referendum we are now finally getting the chance to reverse. And go back to being a separate self governed country again.

We voted LEAVE. OUT. And won. That means no connection or control by the EU. Its also got nothing to do with the economy. Its far more fundamental than that. And it was a binary vote, which we won. And which they are still trying to stop. Even mrs mays deal, leaves us in. But calls it out. Thats not what we voted for.

As for that figure on the bus, its NOT false or lies. That IS the correct amount. Thats what we COULD spend on the NHS is we were to use all of the saved money for one thing. IF we came properly out and were not allowing may to keep paying into the EU to stay in the thing while pretending to be out. And as for the border in Ireland then the whole idea of that was stupid. Theres no way to BE out, have your own rules and taxes, and immigration laws WITHOUT A BORDER. Thats pretty obvious. They better get used to it. Thats what we voted for. Thats just one of the consequences. Best for ireland to leave as well, since there wont be an EU in a decade anyway.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 05 Nov 2018, 20:47

HERE is the remainers and the governments heavily biased propaganda leaflet that cost the taxpayer 9 million that went through EVERY door in the country.
It clearly shows what we were told. It says that we would be out of everything, including the single market and it would cause economic problems, and would make everyone poorer and that it was a ONCE IN A GENERATION vote. And that the government would implement the people decision. We were told all this, and we voted LEAVE ANYWAY!!! http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/propaganda.pdf


And the PRIME MINISTER repeatedly said THIS: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/90046 ... dum-latest LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY.


And this sums things up perfectly. http://youtu.be/Nh11RYjheUY

Now. We are STILL WAITING for all of these things, to ACTUALLY LEAVE COMPLETELY some 2.5 years AFTER WE WON THE REFERENDUM saying we would. Why is this??? Because just like all socialist dictatorships in the past, they know better. They dont want to do as we told them. So they made a massive mess/delay/worse for two years while the biased media tried to make everyone scared of LEAVE and work on us so they can eventually get another vote to make us vote correctly... This is ALWAYS what the EU do.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Scooterman » 05 Nov 2018, 22:33

This is a useful reminder for people claiming they didn't know what they were voting for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-rkYJm8d6c

Also Remain doesn't mean the 'status quo'. The goal of the EU is "Ever closer political and economic union" aka: a european super state. EU National Governments (if they still exist) will be powerless. The EU superstate will economically ruin, or impose (via eu army) a puppet government on any dissenting state.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Nov 2018, 02:02

Quite.

And heres another. Google lefty progressives have just removed another of his videos. Free speech is fine as long as it doesn't disagree with their views.


youtu.be/R9T4dGAxtO0
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 06 Nov 2018, 15:32

Unfortunately NI is a little bit more complex than just a border, it gave citizens the constitutional right to the ECJ and ECHR. That is enshrined in their constitution as well as links to Ireland and the EU. No matter what we do NI residents will be able to use the ECJ to over rule a UK court those in other parts of the UK won't. There are potential solutions to a hard border for trade but we won't have technology ready for it nor does it solve the people moving across border. An EU resident can fly into Dublin take a train to Belfast, catch a ferry to Scotland without any border checks. That would hardly be taking back control of our borders. It is obvious that these issues can't be resolved without some form of check which would inevitably be at the border or middle of the Irish sea. It doesn't matter how they describe any solution if we don't want an open border for immigration then something has to be there. But can't be because of the NI/Ireland relationship.

Try a non biased fact checker instead of the Express, it has been shown time after time that £350m is incorrect https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million ... ty-misuse/ and it wouldn't go to the NHS we will have to increase customs posts and staff, create British Standards (or adopt EU which is the best for exporters), employ trade negotiators. Go through every bit of EU law we incorporated, the lawyers will make a killing.

Then we need to trade probably on WTO terms so goods cost the consumer more. Totally against your capitalist beliefs as it protects business, gives them headroom to be inefficient and lazy. One could argue that current EU tariffs on goods from outside the EU has the same impact. Anyway it'll mean 10% more on a Merc or VW van.

For me the only acceptable exit is a Canada style free trade agreement but the EU club will never give us that as it would remove the need to be a member of their cozy club. I can live with keeping EU standards on goods, if we want to export we need to meet them anyway. Sadly with the uncertainty on Brexit the farms around me don't know how many lambs to breed, inseminate now, born after Brexit. The government's handling has been appalling and why anyone would want to give them more to do and control is beyond me.

A fucked up mess which many now see Aaron Banks even questioning whether it was the right choice.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Nov 2018, 15:58

Unfortunately NI is a little bit more complex than just a border, it gave citizens the constitutional right to the ECJ and ECHR. That is enshrined in their constitution as well as links to Ireland and the EU. No matter what we do NI residents will be able to use the ECJ to over rule a UK court those in other parts of the UK won't.


No its not complicated. We voted out. Properly out. We won. We should cut all ties and stick a border up. As for all the rest, sorry. Dont care. The vote over ruled all that. So as a country its is no longer recognized. Getting totally out of the EU and saving my country is way more important than all the other technicalities. They cant overrule anything if we dont allow it or recognize it. What they going to do, stamp their feet?

Then we need to trade probably on WTO terms so goods cost the consumer more. Totally against your capitalist beliefs as it protects business, gives them headroom to be inefficient and lazy. One could argue that current EU tariffs on goods from outside the EU has the same impact. Anyway it'll mean 10% more on a Merc or VW van.


When I look up and down my street, I see 3 makes of japanese, a chrysler neon, my own van, my carers 4x4 korean car, and many many more. When I look around my room, my TV is LG, 2 DELL laptops, 4 power supplies, a lathe, a drilling machine, 2 rechargable drills, a mirror on a microphone stand, a load of radio control equipment and other hobby stuff, a PC, and a printer. A gas fire, a DSLR and 4 lenses, and an electric bed. Along with 3 hobby chargers, and a load of hand tools and a tool cabinet. A fire extinguisher. A tilt table. And tins of coke, a electric razor. And NOT ONE OF THESE came from the EU. So that means that they all came from other places. I can list the countries. I wont bother because you likely already know that these other countries, all use the WTO rules for trading. In fact the only thing that I see that came from the EU is my Auto mower. So it wont make a blind bit of difference.

Other than the fact that we will or should be able to buy all of this stuff CHEAPER once out of the EU after doing a few deals with these countries. Likewise the richest per capita countries in europe are not members of the EU either. And there are 165 countries that we trade with that are not in the EU and we have no trade deal with yet. I might add that the EU is a shrinking market, and the rest of the world that is 97 percent of ALL WORLD TRADE is a growing market. And not being in any fancy market with the EU does not stop us trading with them in any way. Whats more in many cases the extra regulation and manufacturing costs to comply with the EU bullshit makes many of our goods much MORE expensive. Heres an example:

It had been a peaceful night in Europe where all the women are strong, the men are good looking, and the children are above average. Martin woke up on his EU regulated bed and looked through his EU regulated window. This night, Martin had slept like a baby thanks to the 109 EU regulations concerning pillows, the 5 EU regulations concerning pillow cases, and the 50 EU laws regulating duvets and sheets. Martin went to brush his teeth with his toothbrush regulated by 31 EU laws. READ THE REST https://mises.org/wire/just-another-day ... ted-europe
Without conforming to much of this bullshit, business can thrive and we will all end up much better off.


SO very sorry but these fear stories that you are giving me, but they dont work. I ran 3 businesses in the past. Its EASIER to deal with non EU countries as theres far less regulation, red tape, and rules about god knows what. When I was selling automotive dynamometers, I almost gave up bothering to sell into the EU because of the ridiculous cost and over draconian and contradictory legislation involved, that kept changing as you attempted to comply! A ridiculous barrier to trade that favours only huge organizations and teams of solicitors. WTO is dead simple! And cheaper overall. Thats why I am typing this on a computer built in a country WE DONT HAVE ANY KIND OF TRADE DEAL WITH!!!
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 06 Nov 2018, 17:28

Unfortunately a constitution is a legally binding document and you can't ignore it, if you do you break up the union which definitely wasn't what the EU referendum was about.

I've got no idea why you think "we" trade under WTO rules we trade under EU trade agreements alongside WTO, we have not had to do our own thing since joining the EU. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41859691 when we leave we won't have any free trade agreements, we have already started the trade divorce with WTO. You also have to consider anti dumping, the EU has rules which we leave and need to decide how to replace probably just copying the EU rule. Many of the items you mention could be from countries the EU have agreements with. Some will also qualify as developing nations with reduction in duty. That influences where western companies manufacture, eg as China gets heavier duty you might switch to Vietnam. Some of the rules are WTO but the EU negotiates as well. We'll need an army of trade negotiators to quickly get our own agreements in place.

You might not buy European goods but the German car makers sell a lot of cars, things like Ford Transit vans now made in Europe all get 10% duty. Food from the EU has the same increase as does our export to them. We won't have those EU free trade agreements with the likes of the US and Japan and it will take time to get them. Personally I try and buy UK made when I can, new Vauxhall Vivaro built in Luton on order, waiting for a French made engine, even UK made only 50% of the components are made here. Stupid to try and buy British I know.

Unfortunately standards are needed and responsible business works to them. I've got enough experience of the result of someone injuring themselves and suing to know that a court will want to see you working to a standard. It is just testing and numbers but you won't have the backing of an insurance company if you do get sued. I've spent the last 25 years involved in design and selling in the UK and globally, set up distribution in Europe, Asia and the US and always worked to a standard, it protects the business from stupid people.

We need free trade if UK manufacturing is to compete, it makes it easier/cheaper to sell, ensures that waste in business is removed and vastly reduces paperwork. Bonded warehouse status is a nightmare when you import then export for sub assemblies not made in the EU.

The EU is destined to failure, common currency and individual states unable to control their own economic policies is a crazy policy, free movement of people without regard for where they end up guaranteed to inflame social tension but the principle of a free trade area works, encouraging cross border collaboration and manufacture. It just needs May to get that sorted and dump the rest of it. Dream on.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Nov 2018, 19:00

Unfortunately a constitution is a legally binding document and you can't ignore it, if you do you break up the union which definitely wasn't what the EU referendum was about.
Yes it was. And tough! Its only legally binding until you have a bigger more important decision that overules all those technicalities. Sorry, but you get hung up on technicalities. The people (the country) voted OUT of the EU no matter what that may ruin, or who that may upset.

I've got no idea why you think "we" trade under WTO rules we trade under EU trade agreements alongside WTO, we have not had to do our own thing since joining the EU. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41859691 when we leave we won't have any free trade agreements, we have already started the trade divorce with WTO.

97 % of all world trade has no trade agreement with the EU. All of that trade is WTO rules. To all EU or to all out of the EU countries. And the EU mega complication of rules and legislation makes it all but impossible to get a trade deal with most of the world.

You also have to consider anti dumping,

We start on day 1 with what we do already. Then we remove as much of the crap and do things that are in OUR favour as soon as practical after we have left the failing EU.

You might not buy European goods but the German car makers sell a lot of cars, things like Ford Transit vans now made in Europe all get 10% duty. Food from the EU has the same increase as does our export to them. We won't have those EU free trade agreements with the likes of the US and Japan and it will take time to get them.

We dont have them now. The EU cannot agree anything as theres too many rules and regulations and too much paperwork. They have been trying to make arrangements for many many years but the unbelievable overly complex regulations made it impossible. The EU have very few trade agreements, in reality and certainly not good ones! So thats more bullshit! Yet my house is full of US and japanese goods. Theres 6k worth on Nikon cameras, and a US imported van just to begin with. Cheaper by absolutely miles I may add, that getting the same vehicle throught the EU. By half.

Unfortunately standards are needed and responsible business works to them.

I can buy a pillow thats entirely safe and that complies with just 4 standards from australia, or any number of countries very cheaply in ones or in container loads, much cheaper than a EU one with ONE HUNDRED AND NINE regulations, and another fer for its pillow case. The EU is wildly over legislated. And this not only hurts prices and hurts our manufacturers, it hurts us with higher costs and therefore a lower standard of living, and stops the EU getting trade deals with the likes of the US.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Nov 2018, 19:29

The other thing is that while I do not think it will make us poorer in the long term, quite the opposite in fact. I DONT CARE! That is not why I voted. Theres much more important things at stake. I want my country back. I want nothing to do with any part of a socialist ever expanding overly liberal, non democratic USSR style superstate. And neither do most of its members. But they ignore that of course, because these pro EU nuts always do. As such brexit isnt their only problem. They will miss our funding, unless may decides to keep paying them which WE DIDNT VOTE FOR. They have at least 8 countries that are fighting back. And many more that now have the rise of the right and very anti EU ideas. And italy right now are going to cause more problems. And so they should.

Another vote which includes the option to remain in the EU IN ANY WAY, IS NOT DEMOCRATIC, if whichever group loses does it then become the best of three. Sure, voting to Leave was always going to be a leap into the unknown but it would be our unknown which we could work at, but voting to Remain was always a guarantee of more Uncontrolled Immigration, rule by Brussels, paying over £16Billion / year to Brussels, having no control of our own fishing rights, no ability to support industry, inability to negotiate trade agreements with the big emerging economies etc, and last but not least, tying ourselves to one of the worst performing economies in the world. I would like to hear the arguments which would confirm to me how remaining in the EU is in our best interests.

We were already told that we would all be poor, go bankrupt and be out of work by the governments own illegal propaganda leaflet. And the majority voted LEAVE regardless. So again. I DONT CARE!!! about the technicalities, I want no part in it. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/propaganda.pdf
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 07 Nov 2018, 13:22

The vote was to leave the EU not destroy the United Kingdom, I'm certain that was not on anything either side published. It can't just be considered collateral damage! Peace in NI was difficult to achieve and you cannot take it back to violence as different factions argue over a united Ireland . Any Brexit agreement has to consider the lives of those in NI. That is not a technicality when you live through it. The problem is they can't sort it.

Take a look at the value of our exports to the EU, all on free trade basis, no-one knows how much of that we will lose but potentially it could be a lot. It will have a long term impact which we won't recover from trade with the rest of the world. Why do we need to lose it? I can understand the mistaken belief that we don't make our own laws or have control but cannot see why anyone would want to risk losing £350bn of exports. A free trade agreement without freedom of movement ie Canada style should of been the goal right from the start. Not the bodge she is about to try and push through. This is why there needed to be clarity on what we were trying to achieve before negotiating, 2 years wasted and we still haven't got a defined set of goals,

The Japanese and US goods you buy are made to standards, take a look at who created the EU ones and you might be shocked to find that the UK was one of the driving forces! That won't change after Brexit as the standards are created to protect consumers who sue when they fail. Litigation is the problem, standards just protect responsible manufacturers. At one time we had individual tests in each European country, in my industry we had to test to each individual standard, usually destruction testing 3 bikes, 27 x it prevented small companies exporting especially high value, low volume models, it was impossible to create unique product to destroy so many before you sold 1.Development was slow because of this. Now with one standard you can develop far more quickly, create more specific product in small volumes, 1 standard to test to and immediately you can sell in all those countries. The consumer has protection knowing that a certified product is safe, won't fall apart and the components like handlebars won't break. That standard was developed primarily by one British QC engineer, the rest of the EU had input but it was mostly input from UK bike companies that decided it. It helped global trade as the EU one was accepted by countries who didn't have the experience to create their own and subsequently became an ISO standard. As a member of the EU we had influence, post Brexit we'll probably have to adopt them but won't have input. We just won't have the resource to check every standard in every area and will settle with CEN/ISO. No different to where we are now only without a voice.

We'll see what happens when May presents the agreed plan but I can't see it getting support in the house as it won't be acceptable to Leave or Remain.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 07 Nov 2018, 14:10

The vote was to leave the EU not destroy the United Kingdom, I'm certain that was not on anything either side published.

Leaving will NOT destroy anything. Short term issues quite possibly. And we WERE TOLD clearly that this was likely to be the case. And we VOTED FOR THAT REGARDLESS AND WON.

It can't just be considered collateral damage! Peace in NI was difficult to achieve and you cannot take it back to violence as different factions argue over a united Ireland . Any Brexit agreement has to consider the lives of those in NI. That is not a technicality when you live through it. The problem is they can't sort it.

Leaving the EU means a border of some kind has to happen. That is EXACTLY WHAT WE VOTED FOR. And yes if the religous nuts cant help killing each other then tough. That IS collateral damage. I and all those that want OUT of the EU consider that a minor issue compared to giving up our country to the communistic socialist unelected EU superstate. And we won. You might not like it. Tough.

Take a look at the value of our exports to the EU, all on free trade basis, no-one knows how much of that we will lose but potentially it could be a lot. It will have a long term impact which we won't recover from trade with the rest of the world. Why do we need to lose it? I can understand the mistaken belief that we don't make our own laws or have control but cannot see why anyone would want to risk losing £350bn of exports.

We wont. Thats all the scare tactics again. And its completely irrelevant anyway. We WERE TOLD that we would be poorer, and we voted to get out ANYWAY!!! BAnd we WON. Some things are more important than economics. Even if you believe that bull. It was never a vote about the economy. Thats all been sprung on us by remainers as they cant seem to accept that they LOST!!!

A free trade agreement without freedom of movement ie Canada style should of been the goal right from the start. Not the bodge she is about to try and push through. This is why there needed to be clarity on what we were trying to achieve before negotiating, 2 years wasted and we still haven't got a defined set of goals,

We didn't need a week negotiating. Out first, the day after the referendum. Then do any deals that we can agree IF POSSIBLE that are beneficial to us after the important bit that we voted for later on.

The Japanese and US goods you buy are made to standards, take a look at who created the EU ones and you might be shocked to find that the UK was one of the driving forces! That won't change after Brexit as the standards are created to protect consumers who sue when they fail. Litigation is the problem, standards just protect responsible manufacturers. At one time we had individual tests in each European country, in my industry we had to test to each individual standard, usually destruction testing 3 bikes, 27 x it prevented small companies exporting especially high value, low volume models, it was impossible to create unique product to destroy so many before you sold 1.Development was slow etc etc etc etc

You are hung up on minor technicalities again. We already have these standards. And theres little reason to change many of them. So what changes? Unless we CHOOSE to change a few standards. Because we CAN.

We'll see what happens when May presents the agreed plan but I can't see it getting support in the house as it won't be acceptable to Leave or Remain.

Its absolutely unacceptable to all the leave people. Because theres no actual leaving going on.
We should have left the day after the referendum. Posted the key through the letterbox. Told them if they wish to sell us their stuff we are quite happy to buy it as long as we can sell them ours. And that should have been it. But all those that refuse to accept that LEAVE WON, have been fighting it and trying to stay in ever since. Including most of the media, political classes, big business, etc for 2.5 years so far. And their brain washing and scare stories seem to be working on you. Remember that may is a remainer and it shows. There was never any need for more than 1 week to explain to the EU what leaving meant. That should have been it. All this mess wasnt required, its just a show to wear down the weak minded. Like you it seems.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 07 Nov 2018, 15:23

If only divorce was as simple, 40 years of joint policies might take a bit more sorting out than just walking away. But I knew that before the vote anyone who thought that it would be easy was deluded. You might not like it but legislation needed to be sorted before we exit hence the great repeal bill. I've got no idea what walking away would mean, stop paying money to the EU?, close borders to EU citizens? Stop all EU freight at Dover and charge duty? No benefit payments to EU citizens here? You'd need policies and legislation immediately to replace anything related to the EU.


Sadly no matter what you want you will be very disappointed, you wanted more control but it goes to a government with no idea what they are doing but we knew that before the vote. They now do what they want and even if we had a general election the only option would be no better.

And yes I work to regulations, £5m a year company exporting globally meant that we had to comply. I've only had one liability case, typically in the US and know what happens if you haven't complied. Also know what impact having duty to consider on UK made goods being exported. No fear tactics just the reality of each product being 15% more expensive and what the effect will be on a European distribution network. It is not fear that we risk losing all that export business I just know that we would lose sales with so big a price increase.

I've got no problem with Brexit provided that duty free trade is maintained, we share security information and work within Euratom, the problem is our negotiating is useless. We should of been harder from the start pushing for a Canada style free trade agreement and losing everything else bar the Council of Europe/ECHR which was a pre EEC commitment. We'll get none of that so I will be just as disappointed as you, a wasted opportunity.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 07 Nov 2018, 17:25

I've got no idea what walking away would mean, stop paying money to the EU?

Obviously!!! Why pay anything to an EU we are no longer members of? :clap
, close borders to EU citizens?

EU is the same as someone from ANY country since we will not be in the EU!!! Set a date 3 months after the referendum, to get out and go home if not legally a UK citizen or apply for a work permit/visa just like people from other parts of the world. We let all people in that WE CHOOSE based on OUR needs, criminal records, qualifications, experience, work history, financial status etc. And the barrier should be high. Then we wont end up with masses of unemployed blacks and muslims on benefits with massive violent crime and integration problems, and do so in CONTROLLED numbers. So yes. At least initially till we decide who can come in.
Stop all EU freight at Dover and charge duty?

No tariffs either way unless THEY DO. And then if they do so, then initially WTO rules unless they see sense. They have more to lose than us since we import much more than they do. So all those germans will be out of work unless they do see sense. In any case WTO rules are fine.
No benefit payments to EU citizens here? You'd need policies and legislation immediately to replace anything related to the EU.

Obviously, since we will be OUT of the EU. The EU will be just the same as every other external country. Why would we give non UK citizens free housing, free council tax, free housing benefit, free spending money, free medical care and pay for free children's benefits and free education? Give them 3 months to go home or deport.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 07 Nov 2018, 18:36

And all of that requires legislation which takes time and you have to fix your position, you can't wait and see if the EU decides to impose duty, business needs to know where it stands and plan for it. If you can't forecast the price you can't forecast demand, no demand forecast and you can't plan production or forecast raw material. The basics of any business.

You would need to repeal anything that gives people rights, look at how many are tied up in immigration holding and imagine that multiplied a lot of times, it would take years to get it all through courts if there was any loophole. Same goes for visas we probably don't have enough people to process the applications.

We already control our border with rules and that non EU immigration is the same or higher than EU, this is where your non white, Muslim comes from and you think that by leaving the EU this will change? Those rules could be applied to EU citizens and could be amended to allow unskilled workers in certain sectors like agriculture or care, once again it would take time.

You might not like rules and legislation but it can't be ignored, you have to set policy and pass legislation and it can still be challenged. That is if it gets through both houses. That needs to be done before you walk away and should be part of the government's no deal plan but somehow I can't see them doing it. No matter how you look at it there are details that need to be overcome, it needs doing correctly to avoid legal challenges and you have to get agreement from Parliament. The government isn't negotiating like that, just the opposite, looking at the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU your dream won't happen no matter who is in government. And neither will mine of a fluid duty free agreement that promotes trade. No winners just losers!
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 07 Nov 2018, 21:49

And all of that requires legislation which takes time and you have to fix your position, you can't wait and see if the EU decides to impose duty, business needs to know where it stands and plan for it.

Government just sits about making rules. If we scrapped all rules and were out tomorrow, busiuness would continue buying, selling across all countries exactly as it does now. The govenrnments would be in a panic trying to figure out what tax to apply and how, and have to rapidly figure it out. But trade would comtinue just fine. And while they may LIKE plans for the future, they cant always get that. So tough. We voted out, and we didnt vote out in 2 to 10 years! And we won. And that takes priority. Had we left the day after the referendum, as we should have done, much of the subsequend deals and tax
atiuon levels and rules would now be done and behind us. And we would be 40 billion better off, as well as being in a better position to do a trade deal before mercedes benz went bust.

If you can't forecast the price you can't forecast demand, no demand forecast and you can't plan production or forecast raw material. The basics of any business.

Supplyu and demand wont change. The cars crossing the border (and all the rest) will still happen. Unless the EU decide to stop it, and lose out on all that trade. Theres no way they will, because the UK can buy everything they need inc cars from the rest of the world. Mr BMW worker is on a 3 day week. Esp now trump is slowing down their US sales!

You would need to repeal anything that gives people rights, look at how many are tied up in immigration holding and imagine that multiplied a lot of times, it would take years to get it all through courts if there was any loophole. Same goes for visas we probably don't have enough people to process the applications.

No it wouldnt. And no you wouldnt. You change nothing today, and change anything you want over the next few years. Project fear. Yes there may be a few loop holes and loose ends. Deal with it.

We already control our border with rules and that non EU immigration is the same or higher than EU, this is where your non white, Muslim comes from and you think that by leaving the EU this will change? Those rules could be applied to EU citizens and could be amended to allow unskilled workers in certain sectors like agriculture or care, once again it would take time.


Yes. Thats what we voted for. Theres now 750 polish convicted murderers and 350 rapists that we have found simply by researching the backgrounds of a few EU migrants that came here over 24 months alone. And thoise were only found because they were arested for other things while HERE. So god only knows how many there really are. And there are many thousands of muslims here that are suposedly EU citizens too. Not to mention somalian migrants living thier violent and rapy lives about 15 to a house that are here as supposed refugees. All hapen to be fighting age men... No old, and the only "children" look more like 30 to most people. All that has got to stop.

You might not like rules and legislation but it can't be ignored, you have to set policy and pass legislation and it can still be challenged. That is if it gets through both houses. That needs to be done before you walk away and should be part of the government's no deal plan but somehow I can't see them doing it.

No it doesent. You keep what we have, and RAPIDLY change the rules and legislation as fast as we can go. Theres no need of any gaps.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby greybeard » 07 Nov 2018, 23:01

"We already control our border with rules and that non EU immigration is the same or higher than EU, this is where your non white, Muslim comes from and you think that by leaving the EU this will change?"

You are overlooking the hoards of Muslim migrants in the EU countries who, once those countries issue them with EU documentation, would be ENTITLED to enter UK - unless we leave before that comes to pass. We don't have long.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 08 Nov 2018, 11:02

So you voted to keep Britain a democracy and control our laws and then want to ignore or get rid of laws?. Democracy has legal process and protects rights. Get rid of those and you won't have democracy.

The imposition of duty affects retail prices and you can't predict volumes with a 15% increase so you have to take a guess, can't use past history. Get it wrong by over producing or under estimating and you lose. We are 5 months away from Brexit and no-one has a clue whether duty will be imposed is a crazy scenario, you could not trust this government to achieve anything remotely sensible.

We had the right to control EU immigration and didn't use it! Getting back control will make no difference if you have the same politicians n charge. It wasn't EU rules that were the problem it was us not using powers we had.

So you are now in a position shouting we won but it is in the hands of politicians, they won't deliver and will compromise. Absolutely nothing you can do about it other than vote them out, oops that lets Corbyn in. Do you consider that a win?
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Nov 2018, 11:48

All irrelevant. We leave, and figure it out as we need to. You get hung up on trivialities. We can keep much of everything the same. Or change it afterwards. You cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. LEAVE was what we voted for, including any consequences and we won. 2.5 years on, and the re-moaners are still at it on every tv channel, in courts, newspapers, parliament etc. To wear us down with the negativity. All planned. We voted wrong. We must remain in as long as possible until that gets corrected. We are STILL WAITING.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 08 Nov 2018, 14:34

Burgerman wrote:All irrelevant. We leave, and figure it out as we need to. You get hung up on trivialities. We can keep much of everything the same. Or change it afterwards. You cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. LEAVE was what we voted for, including any consequences and we won. 2.5 years on, and the re-moaners are still at it on every tv channel, in courts, newspapers, parliament etc. To wear us down with the negativity. All planned. We voted wrong. We must remain in as long as possible until that gets corrected. We are STILL WAITING.


But they aren't trivial and need changing before you can do anything.Just look at current news, MP's and cabinet wanting to see the legal advice from the Attorney General before they will vote on anything. Democratic process requires change to go through both houses. Inevitably whatever May proposes won't do this, NI has to be resolved or the DUP withdraw their support so no majority. Or Parliament has to accept a bad deal rather than no deal and a bad deal would keep us tied to EU for who knows how long? Probably the best thing is for Parliament to reject and start negotiating again but the fear of no deal might force acceptance of May's proposal or they try and postpone Article 50. You might have won a vote but what you want and what you will get are probably going to be very different. And there is nothing that can be done to change it. Still, David Davis does say that they have 100's f plans for a no deal result which is reassuring...
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Nov 2018, 14:58

All technicalities. No deal, is not a bad thing. Thats how its presented because - scare...
We should have left the golf club, taken our money with us 2.5 years ago, is what we voted for and won. By now all those technicalities would be resolved, and we could have been 2 years or more into a real trade deal with the 165 countries that the EU wasn't able to do any deal with. But all the remainers like may, have told the golf club we are leaving :wave: but can we still use the green? And the little car? And the bar? If we pay the money? She and you dont seem to understand what LEAVE means.
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Re: Pat, The peoples vote!

Postby MichaelB » 08 Nov 2018, 16:52

Burgerman wrote:All technicalities. No deal, is not a bad thing. Thats how its presented because - scare...
We should have left the golf club, taken our money with us 2.5 years ago, is what we voted for and won. By now all those technicalities would be resolved, and we could have been 2 years or more into a real trade deal with the 165 countries that the EU wasn't able to do any deal with. But all the remainers like may, have told the golf club we are leaving :wave: but can we still use the green? And the little car? And the bar? If we pay the money? She and you dont seem to understand what LEAVE means.


I accept that we are leaving what I can't accept is the loss of human rights because of the "out means out" from those too stupid to understand how the Council of Europe is not part of the EU. Ignorant fools throwing away rights that protect many disabled people. I'd say that I had a greater understanding than the vast majority of Leave voters in that respect! I also understand the "trivialities" that need to be resolved prior to us leaving. Not resolving the issues linked to leaving like the position of EU citizens in the UK will cause problems, we need clear policies and legislation so that they know where they stand. 2 years on it has not been thought about if we leave without a deal and by the time they do it'll be 2 more years. We've wasted 2 years because the Tories can't sort themselves out never mind the EU.

Take a look at the wealth of those countries we could do trade deals with other than the US and Japan, both of whom will have a trade deal in the near future none come anywhere near the potential of the European countries that we currently trade with. Other than China but that would be a one sided deal. I've said a number of times that we should of pushed for a Canada style free trade deal. There are no freedom of movement clauses and Canada can do other trade deals exactly what we want without any of the EU restrictions.

At the moment there are no winners, no-one will be happy with the outcome and there is little anyone can do.
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